What happens when we are intentional about being a good host? Host Holly McLellan talks with guests Joleen Mitton, Justin Wiebe, and Josh Paterson about their experiences and reflections from The Circle’s 2023 All My Relations gathering.
What happens when we are intentional about being a good host? What are the possibilities for philanthropy – and for ourselves – when we are hosted in a way that is grounded in Indigenous-led ways of giving and sharing?
As we start to gather again, and in newly adapted ways, this podcast shares lessons from one special gathering. Host Holly McLellan talks with guests Joleen Mitton, Justin Wiebe, and Josh Paterson about their experiences and reflections from The Circle’s 2023 All My Relations gathering. Key themes of presence, Indigenous leadership, accessibility, inclusion, closed spaces, liberation, relationships, connection to land, gratitude, and honesty highlight how a conference that is far from typical intentionally centres principles of reciprocity, accountability, curiosity, and abundance. In this way, power dynamics are reframed between Indigenous-led organizations and settler-led foundations to pave the way for transformation and collective change.
The All My Relations conference was held at the breathtaking Wanuskewin Heritage Park, Treaty Six territory, in May 2023. All are welcome and encouraged to attend The Circle’s gatherings and events, including the upcoming Fall Feast, October 31 to November 2.
This episode is a proud production of The Circle, published in partnership with The Philanthropist Journal. It was created in the spirit of reciprocity by a small group of people as a huge thanks to The Circle for hosting them at All My Relations 2023. Special thanks to Joleen Mitton, Justin Wiebe, Josh Paterson, Holly McLellan, Carly Goodman, and Noor El-Husseini.
Podcast Music: Lori Cullen, “Go Climb,” from Blood Wonder, 2022
Links to organizations and projects mentioned:
Learn more about The Circle on Philanthropy, host of the AMR gathering, and how they contribute to positive change between Indigenous communities and the philanthropic sector.
Register for The Circle’s upcoming virtual Fall Feast, a time for harvesting collective wisdom and sharing that abundance with The Circle’s members and the sector (October 31–November 2).
Read about Wanuskewin, a sacred site and gathering place for Northern Plains Indigenous Peoples for more than 6,000 years, now the site of an Indigenous-owned and -operated educational and conference centre.
Learn about Joleen Mitton’s organizations: VIFW | Vancouver Indigenous Fashion Week, Supernaturals Modelling, and All My Relations Basketball.
Learn about Justin Wiebe’s organization: EleV – Mastercard Foundation.
Learn about Josh Paterson’s organization: Law Foundation of BC – Funding legal programs throughout BC.
Learn more about Jade Roberts, Indigenous artist, educator, and podcaster, and the creator of The Circle’s All My Relations beautiful artwork, including the design featured for this podcast.
Transcript
Holly
Welcome to this special podcast about the All My Relations gathering, a powerful and unique biennial conference hosted by The Circle on Philanthropy. Today we’ll be talking about what it means to be hosted in The Circle way. What’s possible when conferences centre presents and people, and what learnings we can share with our peers in the sector, especially as we start to gather again. I’m your host, Holly McLellan, a settler joining you from Toronto, or Tkaronto, in Treaty 13, Dish with One Spoon territory. I’m a non-Indigenous volunteer with The Circle, and I had the pleasure of attending the All My Relations gathering this past May. AMR for short, the gathering took place in Treaty Six on the homeland of the Métis at the breathtaking Wanuskewin Heritage Park, a gathering place for Northern Plains Indigenous Peoples for over 6,000 years, and it’s in the process of being recognized by the UN as a UNESCO heritage site. The focus of AMR is to amplify the ways in which Indigenous-led and -informed people, organizations, movements, and nations continue to pave the way for collective change and positive transformation. AMR is one of the ways The Circle breathes life into their seasonal pathway practice, and it’s grounded in principles of reciprocity, accountability, curiosity, and abundance. And I am so abundantly happy to welcome our three guests for today’s conversation. Joleen Mitton, Josh Patterson, and Justin Wiebe, thank you all so much for being here and being part of The Circle and for all of your meaningful work in the community. Let’s start with some introductions.
Joleen
Yeah, my name is Joleen Mitton. I’m Cree and Dane-zaa and some kind of settler. My mom grew up in foster care, so she’s a ‘60s scooper. I was raised on the homelands, the unceded lands of the Musqueam Squamish and Tsleil-Waututh people. I’m an urban Indigenous person. I founded Vancouver Indigenous Fashion Week, I co founded Supernaturals. And I run a non-profit called AMR IS where we mostly work with Indigenous youth who are coming in and out of foster care. I’ve been working in fashion for the last 23 years. I have extensive knowledge of what the industry does to people and how we can change it through Indigenous fashion. And I’m just happy to be here. And I feel like The Circle was, like – I think the first time I went to The Circle was 2018, just after Vancouver Indigenous Fashion Week and I was pretty beat up from VFW. And I was just, like, not wanting to talk to any people with money because I was just kind of hustling to get Vancouver Indigenous Fashion Week up and running. And it was just a lot of promises, broken promises from a lot of people that want to help, and they didn’t really see the vision because the people don’t really understand Indigenous fashion as a whole and how it can be a transformative experience. They just saw it as fashion. So luckily Kris Archie was so awesome and gave me a great place to land with The Circle, and I was really, really thankful.
Holly
Thanks, Joleen, thank you so much for everything you’ve done, and to you and Kris for finding a place to land in The Circle’s community. Thanks for sharing your connection. Justin, can we go to you next?
Justin
Thanks, Holly. tânisi justin nitisiyihkâson michif napew niya sâskwatôn ohci niya. My name is Justin. I’m a Métis guy, Métis citizen. I grew up in my shared homelands with the Cree and, of course, the homeland of the Métis in what’s now called Saskatchewan. I live a few hours north of Saskatoon in the woods, with my lovely partner and our cute but annoying dog Muskwa. In addition to being a citizen of the Métis Nation, I’m also Ukrainian and Mennonite. My Ukrainian and Mennonite ancestors have been in Saskatchewan for many, many generations and have a deep connection to place, but also one that’s deeply connected to the dispossession of my Indigenous ancestors as well. So yeah, super excited to be here and dig into this conversation with everyone else. I’ve been fortunate to sit on the board or the governing circle for The Circle for the past six years. I recently just completed my time, my final term with The Circle – been fortunate – support, you know, the staff and the team at The Circle, from the board level for those six years. Learned a ton, maybe contributed a little bit, but really sort of was there to serve the organization and the staff, who have a really clear vision for the organization and the future of philanthropy. So yeah, I’m no longer on the board anymore, but I’m definitely a diehard Circle supporter.
Holly
Amazing. I know you’ve been an incredible, incredible part of The Circle for so long. And Josh, last but not least, would you like to introduce yourself?
Josh
Hi, thanks for having all of us. I’m Josh Patterson. I use he/him pronouns. I am a settler all the way around. My ancestors came to different parts of what’s now called Canada from Scotland and Ireland, and other places in Europe too. I grew up in Waterloo, Ontario, which is traditionally neutral Anishinabeg and Haudenausaunee territory and now live in Squamish Musqueam and Tsleil-Waututh territories in what’s called Vancouver. For the last three and a half years or so I’ve been really lucky to be the executive director of the Law Foundation of British Columbia. The Law Foundation is a philanthropic foundation that joined The Circle at the beginning of last year, and we’re now in our second round of sending staff to what The Circle calls their Partners in Reciprocity program, which is an intensive program for folks from settler philanthropic organizations, and also Indigenous organizations, to learn together and work together on changing how we do things and how the sector does things. And I participated in that last year; we are now sending five more staff this year. And over the past year and a half or so, I would say, we’ve really been working to integrate The Circle’s learning pathways, both PiR and AMR and the other things offered by The Circle, into the required learning for staff at our foundation, and it has actually made a real difference in the way we do things and the way we think about things. And so we’re really, really grateful to have been accepted into membership and to get to participate in all of this work together.
Holly
Amazing. Thank you so much, Josh. I’m excited to hear more about the impact on your organization and what it’s like for you and your team to be hosted. So I wanted to hear from you about your thoughts on what it means to be hosted by The Circle in the Circle way. In the pre-reading materials, it talks about how it’s not your typical conference, and they even provide a template out-of-office email, letting people know this is not a typical conference, I’m fully engaged and being hosted by The Circle. And so could you share what it means to you or what it feels like to be hosted by The Circle in the Circle way?
Joleen
Yeah, I just feel, I guess – supported is, like, you know, an understatement. Basically, I feel like The Circle has given me a soft spot to land. Talking to funders is not really my strong suit, or raising the funds that I need to get for the youth that I’m working with – the distributing of wealth. I’ve learned a lot from this personally, just from Kris – I think she’s just amazing and a great mentor. I really don’t know how to thank her for that because I was really struggling there for a while because I just didn’t really know how to approach people with money. I have a lot of trauma around money and a lot of trauma around people with money. Like, I’m from the Downtown Eastside, if anyone knows where that is, and it’s just not a space that I usually walked in. Yes, I was a model, but I was a model overseas, and there was a language barrier, so there wasn’t a lot of speaking involved. Right? So yes, I can get myself into a room but being able to, you know, hang with these people. They want to, you know – I guess what you’re doing to make sense for them or to make them look good. And how can we kind of feel used by funders. And, you know, so we can check that box for them was always feeling really, really cruddy. But then meeting The Circle and learning how to speak to these funders is, you know, just in the arsenal in my pocket.
Holly
Thank you so much, Joleen, and thanks for saying that so clearly about the trauma around money and the power and privilege around wealth extraction, and it has caused so much trauma and harm. Do you have a sense of, compared to how you felt in other spaces, what is it about AMR like what they do that maybe another conference that works in philanthropy could try to learn from?
Joleen
Well, I just think it’s this: the fact that there’s Indigenous people involved, right? Like, when I’m going into these big boardrooms, trying to talk to, let’s say, the feds, there were no Indigenous people there, right? Like having Kris there having other Indigenous people they’re looking to get funded for their beautiful programs, like, you don’t feel alone. So I think that’s – I think that’s a big part of it. And then also using the language, learning the language, how to talk to funders is really, really important because that’s something I wasn’t equipped with, right? Because my strong suit is working with kids, working with youth, right? So it’s not really in my . . . and also, if that makes me feel good – I don’t feel great asking for money, that doesn’t feel awesome. So getting the support from people who are, like, this is why you need the money, this is why you need to learn how to ask for it, and in this way, or are now hanging out with us to understand what we’re doing. So it’s not such a hard pull, and making those relationships, which is really important because I think that’s what’s going to float all our boats, right? In order to get all our programs underway. I grew up on the West Coast, right? Like, I’m Cree and Dane-zaa, I’m from Treaty Eight and Treaty Six, actually. But having grew up in West Coast culture, we do a lot of ceremony and Potlatching here. So it’s just the way that we do business here on the coast is completely different from obviously Eurocentric ways of working, right? So it’s a lot of relationship building, it’s a lot of understanding what you’re doing getting people involved. We try to get our funders involved as much as possible. So hopefully, they’d come to the event, or they would come to one of the workshops with some of the youth. And I just think with The Circle, they just give you the certain kind of language that, you know, you’re feeling those things, but you didn’t really know how to express it. I was, like, this is wrong, or, like, you’re giving me peanuts and then you want your name all over this thing. Like, those kinds of conversations that are really yucky, but you need that funding, because, you know, you might be doing this preventative work with all these youth where it’s, like, we have a lot of youth going missing, or we’re losing our youth to suicide, and all they need is some validation that they exist, right. So I think with The Circle, they get you into a room with people that would be interested in what you’re doing. And I think that’s really, really amazing. That’s the kind of, like, come and break bread with us, come and hang out with us. Like those are really simple things that we do in community when we host, right? Even when we’re hosting ceremony and stuff. It’s kind of just what we’ve been doing since time immemorial. And Kris and her team have had a really great, I guess, way of doing those things and recognizing that’s the way we should be working. Rather than, like, we’ll go to a conference and drink wine and go to an after-party and then make a deal in the bathroom. Like this weird way, you know, the world works. And I get it but it doesn’t feel good. Right? It doesn’t feel great. And I think that The Circle is just like, this is a good feeling. I guess it’s, like, those baby steps of getting us together in a good way.
Holly
Did you notice The Circle’s seasonal pathway principles showing up in practice at the gathering, at AMR? The principles are reciprocity, accountability, curiosity, and abundance.
Joleen
Yeah, Cousins’ day was really awesome, so, like, getting grounded with my fellow Indigenous kin. Yeah, I would say, I don’t know. Personally I’m pretty shy too. So it’s, like, it’s hard for me to go and make friends, and I kind of stick to my little table. And yeah, I would say I’m trying to think of the people I met who weren’t Indigenous. Josh was awesome. Josh, you were super cool. And people I got to walk with and meet with, they’re all really curious. I think that’s the first thing, is to be curious and try to figure out, like, where we connect? Yeah, I definitely feel like we needed more time. A little bit more time. That’s the only thing I would say. But ho has time? Who has time? Yeah, I feel like it’s a start. That’s all I can say. Until I see some dollars. It’s a start, in terms of getting to know each other. But definitely, Kris is doing the work. And I really believe in what she’s doing. And yeah, it does make me feel like we’re going down the right path in a sense. It’s hard to say because we’ve just met them, right? We’ve just met these new people. Having a strong front as Indigenous people hanging out the first day was awesome. Yeah, it’s nice to do things in the summer and then, you know, go into ceremony in the winter. And I’m trying to bring that into my own practice for my own mental health, and yeah, just not work all the time would also be awesome.
Holly
Beautiful. Thank you, Joleen. And I know we always need more time, but I know you need to hit the road.
Joleen
Yeah.
Holly
Have a safe trip.
Joleen
Thank you, guys, thank you.
Holly
Bye, Joleen. Josh going to you now. For folks listening who haven’t been to a Circle gathering like AMR, could you describe it? So, what it feels like to you and your team or what it felt like to be hosted by The Circle?
Josh
The AMR gathering really is billed as it’s going to be different than other gatherings and conferences. And you can read that going in, but that doesn’t really capture the sense of how different it is and how different it feels. And you know, some of our – my – colleagues from where I work had never been to a Circle gathering before, and so they had read that too. But then afterwards, they were like, “Oh, this was really, like, I really didn’t expect what this was going to be like, because the way that The Circle puts together AMR, and in fact all of their gatherings, is just so different from other meetings and conferences that people in philanthropy or other disciplines – I’m a lawyer by trade, and even in human rights law, that kind of area of law, or in Indigenous law, where I practised, this is not the way that conferences roll out. The degree of presence that is required and asked just makes such a difference to how everybody shows up. It’s not a place where you can also be polishing off that report that you didn’t get finished, or these kinds of things – it just doesn’t work. And The Circle are very thoughtful and caring about people’s other things happening in their lives, too. So it’s not as though when you come to a Circle gathering, if you’ve got to go deal with something or something happens with your kid – it’s very warm and accepting of that. And those kinds of needs, to attend to things that are really important to you, is actually built into the way in which they talk about it, like “we do want you to be present yet we understand that that’s got to be in balance with other things.” And I think, you know, as Joleen was saying, it would have been nice to have more time, I totally agree with that. And yet, compared to other gatherings, the amount of time and spaciousness that is built in is, I think, really important and different. And it does make you – like Joleen was saying – you want to have more of that. Because there’s time for reflection. That’s really deliberately given; that doesn’t happen in other places. You know, you go to a conference, and there’s a bunch of PowerPoint slideshows, with, like, the top three tips for doing whatever thing, and those are useful sometimes to get the top three tips, but that’s not what you’re going to get here. I just find that the style in which things are done causes me, anyways – my brain to learn and retain way more than I would just sitting for an afternoon in some other kind of meeting. So it just feels different. It’s kind of hard to describe, but the way in which it feels different, I think, really connects to the work that you’re able to do there and the thinking you’re able to do together and with your peers.
Holly
Thanks so much, Josh. Gosh, I was really feeling that, when you’re saying how much The Circle really invites you and supports you to be present. It’s, like, present in all parts of your life that matter, you know? Present with responding to your family’s needs, present with the people around you at AMR, present with yourself. Thanks so much. It’s really making me think a lot about the gift of presence, really. Justin, I wonder, could you jump in on this question too? Feel free if you want to chat about the Cousins’ day as well, and the unique space that that is.
Justin
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, definitely. I’ll talk about the whole AMR first, and then I’ll focus in on that Cousins’ gathering. You know – and thinking about how to describe the feeling and paint a picture for folks – you don’t want to, like, show up at someone’s house. And they’re actually a good host, and they actually want you at their house, you know? They bring out the nice tea cups or the nice glassware, they offer you food, and you feel that they actually want you there, you know – they want to spend time with you. And then they want to visit with you. That’s how the team, I think, thinks about it in some way. And I think we’ve all probably had that experience, where we have a good experience visiting someone and we feel cared for. And we feel heard, and we feel like “That was great.” And so I think it’s that for me, that’s the best way I can sort of think about what going to a Circle gathering or event is: it’s showing up at someone’s house that actually wants you there. And they’re actually good at hosting. And they make sure you feel good. And the Cousins’ day – Cousins’ day for me is always awesome. I was thinking about what the lesson is for, like, learning for others in this sector and beyond who are thinking about gathering and convening and all that stuff. We often talk a lot about inclusion and open space for folks and all that, and that’s great. We need we need diverse spaces, we need places where we can have candid conversation across different experiences that’s safe and that, you know – we’re really looking at who’s all there and trying to make sure we have a good mix of folks engaging. At the same time, it’s okay to have specific closed spaces, and I think it’s particularly important for folks who are marginalized in different ways or whose voice is not often heard – I think people in philanthropy generally don’t necessarily realize how draining it can be being the Indigenous person in a space where they’re one of only a couple, and what the burden of responsibility with the heavy toll that takes. Just the needing to be on and conscious of yourself in that space all the time. It’s such a juxtaposition with the Cousins’ day, which is just a bunch of us hanging out laughing, having fun, catching up, you know? And it might – someone observing from above might be like, “Well, how’s this work? Or, you know, how is this gathering? Or how is this a conference, you know? Like, they’re just hanging out laughing and making a birch bark basket.” But it’s the feeling, and the feeling there is not needing to be on and not needing to be anything more than yourself, and how energizing and how recharging that is. But also, inevitably, the conversations we have – as much as it’s about, you know, a funny joke here, something that happened there, catching up with folks that I might not have seen for a while – we inevitably start talking about work-related things, our own experience in the organizations that we work for. You know, as someone who works in the settler-created philanthropic space, for a large foundation, I’m having conversation with Indigenous folks who are leading grassroots work and talking to them candidly about the struggles that they’re having in accessing funds, and how I can be supportive in that. I may not be able to – my organization might not be the right fit, but how to make connections and how to talk through the challenges they’re experiencing. And to know that there are other Indigenous folks who work on all sides of this, you know? Those spaces are not – they’re not often created, right? So Cousins’ day for me is, it’s a beautiful time to just laugh, connect, but there’s also a lot of work happening. But outsiders, folks kind of observing, may not see it at first, but I think we, those of us who attend, definitely feel that. So, a few things.
Holly
Thanks, Justin. Gosh, it feels like a sacred space to even ask questions about. My heart is really full just thinking about what I’m already learning from all of you about what’s the point? What’s the point of gathering? Why are we coming together? Are we trying to accomplish to-do lists? Are we trying to listen to, you know, the most recent report as individuals as independent from each other, because that’s, in my experience – and I’m not a guest on this podcast, I’m just sharing my experience – but at so many settler-led conferences, you really are there sort of on your own; you’re very independent. It’s not hosted in the way that you’re describing, that it’s about being present, about being really in community with folks. And I’m curious, if you want to share more, Justin, about how is this way of being hosted? How is it significant to the shared labour, that we hold with The Circle and centring Indigenous ways of knowing, giving, and sharing.
Justin
I mean, in part, I think like this, the way that The Circle hosts, it’s inherently like an Indigenous way of doing things. And you know, I don’t generally try to talk at the current pan-Indigenous sort of level – we are incredibly different people, we have different ceremonies, laws, and ways of being and all these things, you know, coast to coast to coast. But one thing ‘ve seen and experienced to be true, almost regardless of where I’ve been in the country, is even if an Indigenous person doesn’t have very much – and there are a lot of us that continue to not have very much because of a lot of messed up things. But despite that, people will give all that they have, and offer all that they have. So going back to the story before of showing up at someone’s house to visit, the person might not have a lot of stuff, they might not have a lot of money, but you know what? They’re gonna feed you, and they’re gonna make sure you have tea, and they’re gonna make sure you have a place to stay. They’re gonna make sure that you’re well, and so I think there’s something about the way that The Circle does things that’s inherently grounded in Indigenous ways of being – that we look out for each other, we take care of each other. And it’s not just each other, in the sense of just Indigenous people taking care of Indigenous people. It’s always the case, you know – think about the first explorers and settlers and colonizers that arrived to what is now Canada: they only survived because Indigenous people took care of them. They were stinky, you know, they hadn’t showered in three or four or five months; they didn’t know that they needed to eat vitamin C, their teeth were falling out. Like, all these things, and they show up on the shores of our lands. And we pity these people and took care of them. We didn’t know who they were, we didn’t know what they were going to do and all that stuff, but we took care of them to make sure they could survive. We taught them what it meant to live here. And so I think there’s this deep sense always for Indigenous people of hosting, of taking care of people, of making sure that they’re well. A couple of things that relate to this: I think what The Circle does so intentionally is also the spaces that we are hosted in. You mentioned this, Holly. We are at Wanuskewin, which is a beautiful Indigenous-led space and a space that Indigenous people have been gathering in and hunting and harvesting for thousands and thousands and thousands of years. It’s a beautiful, gorgeous space, so to gather in that space, as well to be deeply connected to the land and the place also is a different way of gathering than a conference centre or a stuffy hotel room that feels like it could be anywhere. It could be downtown Toronto, it could be Whitehorse, or could be out in space for all any of us know, with two windows and outdated wallpaper and rough carpet. But the spaces that The Circle gather in are Indigenous-led, are Indigenous-owned and -operated. They’re connected to place, and that also shapes the design of our time together. So I think there’s so much more to that.
But maybe the last thing, the way that The Circle brings people together, and the framing of the time we spend together is very much an extension, I think, of The Circle’s overarching mission and vision, right? It’s actually modelling in some ways what we’re trying to do and talking about the spaces where it’s, it’s funders, it’s quote/unquote, grantees, you know? Indigenous-led organizations who are seeking funds coming together, to share and learn from each other in ways that are fundamentally – just even the way in which people are gathering or shifting, strengthening, levelling, and building new sorts of relationships, that otherwise wouldn’t exist, right? The power imbalance that exists between funders and communities and folks doing the work is massive, there’s a massive gap in those relationships. And I think – I feel it in those moments at the AMR where it’s not to say that power no longer exists, but it’s a restructuring of that in some way in who’s speaking and whose knowledge and expertise is being elevated and celebrated. You know, there’s work being done there that, for me, is very much modelling an extension of what The Circle is working towards, for philanthropy more broadly, you know, one where relationships look and feel differently, where reciprocity is a sort of central tenet of those relationships. And I think we see it in moments, in things like AMR.
Josh
I can maybe try to build off of what Justin was saying. We’ve certainly at our foundation been trying to be really, really conscious of what Justin was talking about, which is that that power imbalance is just always there, and while I don’t have a window into the blueprints of all of the work that The Circle does to try and create a space that’s more levelled – it feels different. And like Justin was saying, you can never erase some of those things; it’s a room that has got funders in it and people who are going to be seeking funding in it, but the amount of work that goes into trying to shift how those conversations feel, how that space feels, really, I think, is quite evident. And I’m only seeing one side of it, because I work for a funder, so I can’t speak for how that feels to someone who’s not working at a settler philanthropic agency. But to me, it feels really different. And you get to have conversations that are more possible than in other spaces, more human to human. And it starts right from the way in which people are introduced. You can actually spend a bunch of time at AMR not really knowing what the other person’s job is. Because that’s not actually the foot you’re putting forward first. Deliberately in most of these conversations, we’re talking together as participants in the shared work that we’re trying to do. And you may find out over tea or coffee later that, oh, actually, that person I was talking to turned out to be the ED of a funder or is working at a funded organization. And I think that creates space for just a lot more exploration and thinking and reflection. You know, I had the space and time at AMR to think about some things differently and what we’re doing in our organization that I otherwise don’t have the time for. And whether that’s deliberate or not, the effect for us and for folks on our team was really, really important. So I’m really grateful for it. And I think it really does, it changes the way we’re able to do our work.
Holly
Thanks, Josh. The feeling that you’re leaving me with is deeply liberating. What do you feel liberated from in these spaces? And maybe a positive side? What do you feel liberated to do?
Justin
I’ll try to share some stuff. I say this often to folks in philanthropy, and especially when I meet someone who’s new coming into the philanthropic world. In no other ways will someone laugh at your jokes as much, you know what I mean? Or like answer your emails, and when you start working for a funder, you have to be really conscious of that, because it can really go to your head, I think, that you’re somehow more important or your perspective is more valuable or something like that. I’ve been fortunate – and this is an extension not just of the time at AMR but the time I’ve been involved in The Circle over the last six years more broadly – when I first stepped into the work The Circle was doing, I was quite new to philanthropy. I didn’t know a lot of other Indigenous folks in the space, and The Circle became a place for me where I felt like, oh, I’m not in this alone, I feel there are others who are working to make change in the space in philanthropy. I felt like the questions I had about philanthropy, the struggles I had internally about it, I wasn’t alone in wrestling with those things. So for me the liberation, or I don’t even know if that’s necessarily the right word for this, but The Circle has been a place for me over the last six years where I can test ideas, I can be called, you know, out or in on how I’ve maybe adopted too many settler philanthropic approaches, or how I’ve forgotten that I’m holding the lunch bag. It’s a space that also holds me to account, to the vision and the hope that I do have for what philanthropy can be, but you get lost in the sauce a little bit, you know, of philanthropy, if you’re not careful. And so, for me, as much as it’s a space to gather and laugh and have fun and reconnect for me and learn and all those things, it’s also a community that can help push me and hold me accountable to being better and always working towards creating a sector and a space that’s better for our people, it’s better for Indigenous people. It’s always a time of deep, deep reflection, actually, for me about, like, a bit of a self-check on am I still in the right direction here? Have I lost my way? Have I drank too much of the philanthropy, you know, whatever, and to kind of reorient. So I guess, yeah, I guess the liberation or what I feel liberated to do, through AMR, through The Circle’s work, is it’s to always keep pushing to remember that you’re one, you’re not – that I’m not – in this work alone. But that I’m also not that important and that I’m just a person who’s trying my best. But there are so many others who are doing this work too, so . . .
Holly
Thanks, Justin.
Josh
Just to follow straight on what Justin said, I think that that sense of not being alone is really important for the settler philanthropic agencies and organizations that are part of The Circle too. I see The Circle as creating a community of practice of a kind or, you know – the accountability that Justin’s talking about: are we still on track for what we’re hoping to do here? Have we had setbacks? Are we even noticing where we’re having setbacks, having to come and talk with folks in The Circle about what we’re doing and the challenges that we’re having, and not in a rah-rah, the foundations one-up each other kind of way, like showing all of the fantastic things we’re up to right, but really talking about, particularly in the small groups, the sorts of challenges or headwinds that you might be facing or whatever, I think, is really, really important to folks on all levels within foundations. Whether they’re in board, management, other staff, to have a community where they can talk about these things, where they can bring back examples to their home foundations and the folks that aren’t going to AMR and board members that aren’t attending The Circle events, and talk about what they’re hearing, and it’s really helpful often for board members in lots of foundations. New ideas are often viewed, sometimes, in some foundations, with suspicion; other times just with cautious, like, “Well, I don’t know what we should do, if we should do that.” And having a community of other foundations who are each supporting each other and trying to do better as foundations – not just what they’re funding but how they’re going about doing the work, which leads to changes in what they’re funding. Having a community that you can point to and say, “Look, we’re working together, we’re moving together as a sector in this way” really matters. So I think that what Justin was talking about, the not aloneness– obviously, critically important for indigenous and also racialized staff and foundations to have a sense that they’re not alone, because often they will be alone in their individual workplaces. But it’s also important for the other folks in the foundations who care about these issues to have a community of folks that they can be talking to about it and sharing with. So there’s a lot of work that’s happening at these gatherings. For lots of folks coming from all different places within their work, in their lives.
Holly
Deep seeds, harvested over many different time periods. Thank you, I really appreciate the conversation so far. It’s got me thinking about what’s really the potential for when if conferences or spaces where relationships are centred, we’re being authentic with each other about the vulnerability of what happens when greed and power run our systems, run our planet. And so I kind of want to leave that with you as you were thinking about things. And then as we’re starting to come back together, this AMR this past May was the first AMR gathering to be held in person since the pandemic, and of course, learnings came around like how do you make virtual spaces possible for people as well, even after the most acute part of the pandemic and the lockdowns are behind us. But I’m curious: for you, how have things changed for what it means to you to gather and come together since COVID-19? And have you noticed any surprising or unexpected learnings, consequences, or insights about the role of gathering and hosting?
Justin
I think if nothing else, coming out of lockdowns and coming back together, it’s – I’m being hopeful here as much as I think I can, like, really, really seeing it – we’re much more attentive to accessibility in all its forms. I think The Circle is always super attentive to accessibility and across many dimensions. But I think this is true: I think we still have a long way to go, but really, the pandemic and a forced focus on the impact that our actions have on others, and what feels safe, and what is safe, and how are people able to access and be fully present and participate in the spaces, the events, the gatherings that we create. And so . . .
Justin
I hope that’s something – I think that’s something that’s changed. I think there’s still a lot more for us all to do, to make sure convenings and the work we do more broadly, but in this conversation, particularly bringing people together, whether it be in person or virtually, is accessible, across many dimensions, for people to fully participate. AMR coming back together in person for me was a really great reminder of how beautiful and important it is to actually spend time together in person. I think shifting virtually, and I think how far things have come in terms of being able to host things virtually, is awesome and great and is definitely part of creating and cultivating more accessible spaces moving forward, where people are able to engage and participate in different ways. But at the same time, I know for me to spend time in person with people – it’s something different. There’s something different about gathering in that way. And that’s very difficult, I’d almost say impossible, to fully replicate in a virtual environment. I think we can create really beautiful and really awesome spaces virtually, but they’re different. I think they’re always going to be a little bit different. And so I think that’s something as well, just the value of that time in person really matters. And, you know, I was hopeful that this would happen, but I really don’t think it is, was that we collectively would all be more attentive to how much we travel, and what travel is actually necessary for gathering and all that stuff. And so, there’s still maybe some hope that we’ll figure something out. I think coming out of lockdowns, everyone wanted to host things in person. We need to reconnect with each other. We do this and it’s great. Sometimes it’s really great. But it also becomes a lot, and it becomes a lot of time, and a lot of it can be draining, and it’s, like, I don’t necessarily personally want to be n the road as much as I was before. So, yeah, those are a few things. I think maybe there’s some opportunities for us to as a sector reflect a little bit on what gatherings are necessary? What are the form that they take? How can we be a little bit more coordinated? You know, where a number of us across the sector probably go into a lot of the same events, same gatherings, in person. Now, do we have to all go to all those? Is there other ways to think about what that could look like?
Holly
Thanks, Justin. Yeah, it’s an interesting balance, lwhat you’re sharing about the value of being in person, and then balancing how often does that need to happen? And how do we be much more intentional about it? How is that resonating with you, Josh?
Josh
I think a key thing that has shifted is a recognition of what Justin was saying there, which is that online spaces can be really beautiful and effective. A lot of them aren’t, a lot of them really are tough, and they’re not somewhere you want to be. And they’re not something that you look forward to. The Circle has worked really hard during the pandemic to create spaces in the online environment that were not the same. They were different. But as Justin said, that were good and valuable, and beautiful. And I think a really core, for me, learning from those kinds of processes – and we’ve taken a lot of learning from the way The Circle does their online meetings and try to bring that into when we do convening at our foundation online. But being online, as being in person, is hard. It can be draining; sitting looking at folks on a screen all day can be very draining. The Circle has dealt with that by building in a lot of extra time and space during those online sessions to make them a lot more humane. And I think that, at least in what I’ve seen at The Circle, that same ethos carries into their in-person gatherings too. And that may have been true of their in-person gatherings beforehand. But I see a common thread there. And certainly, oftentimes when you go to an in-person conference, it’s just a packed agenda. And thinking back, something I think Justin was saying before, you really are there as an individual, you’re sort of bouncing around, in and out of sessions, quick check an email, find somewhere at the back of the room so that if you’re checking emails, no one can see your screen, maybe you’re half paying attention. But you’re kind of on your own, you’re doing your own thing, taking a call. And it’s just, whether online or offline, the spaces that The Circle have created are really quite different. For a lot of folks who are in different places on the spectrum of introversion and extroversion, or who sit in different places in relation to experiences of different kinds of social anxiety, it was really clear to me how the online spaces created by The Circle were as much as they could be really safe spaces. For us at the Law Foundation, actually going through the experiences with The Circle – both their online and their in-real-life, in-person events – has really made a difference to how we think about the degrees of comfort that people may feel in different spaces, the obvious care that The Circle puts into it, even though they then don’t put on a seminar talking about the things they’re doing. I think folks who attend are noticing, and I think there’s lots for us to take away into our own convening practices – not to try to create in our convenient practice, like, oh, this is somehow now an Indigenous-designed or -led space. It is not when it’s something put on by us, but not necessarily, depending on who’s organizing it. But there are certainly lessons that can be brought from it. And I don’t think we would have learned those in the same way had we not participated in most of the online and the in-person events from The Circle.
Holly
I’m curious as an in-person guest, Josh and Justin, what was the experience like for you having the virtual folks on the big screens? And was there anything that felt different to how you’ve experienced virtual options at other conferences? Have you had a chance to interact in the same way at other conferences?
Justin
I don’t know if I have had other experiences where hybrid was done quite like it was at AMR. To me, it felt good because I think often the experiences I’ve had where they tried to do something hybrid, the people who are joining virtually are not physically represented in the space at all, you know? So I think that was something that I actually didn’t really think about in the moment. I’m just thinking about it now. But that definitely did feel different. Usually there’s people recording and stuff like that. You assume there’s people online, maybe. But you have no idea who or what and sort of see people coming on and off camera, beside the stage, and stuff like that was cool. Uou actually realize, oh yeah, there’s actually other people engaging in this conversation. Because obviously, usually hybrid stuff – I don’t think hybrid is actually the right word to describe it, because it feels like two separate things happening simultaneously. But this, I think, was more hybrid and reality. I think there’s still probably more that could be done to try to bring the virtual folks into the in-person space, maybe a little bit more. But it was better, I think, than other experiences I had for sure. Again, just because it actually felt like oh, there are people who are engaging virtually in the same conversation, and I have insights into that.
Holly
Thanks, Justin. Any thoughts, Josh? Did you feel like you were in a hybrid conference?
Josh
I asked my colleagues when I got back who had participated online – because we had a number of folks who went and a number of folks who couldn’t make it, like four or five people that were online – they all had a really good experience of it and had great experience in the small groups. So I think this worked, like Justin said.
Holly
Before we get to the last final takeaways and the possibilities going forward, I wanted to go back to something that you spoke to, Justin, about the physical space itself, Wanuskewin. And part of the beautiful part of being in person at AMR this year was the opportunity to get out on the land and be in the space together. And I wonder, what role did the physical space play in hosting you at AMR?
Justin
I mean, the physical space I think is super important, and I’ll share this just because I have glimpses into it. And I don’t think everyone would know. And I mean, The Circle did talk about it at the conference. But for folks who are just listening into the pod here, The Circle’s approach and hosting anything really, in a place, it’s not just a matter of calling up a venue and booking the venue and then everyone just shows up. There’s actually a lot of intentionality that goes in behind the scenes leading up to it. So as someone from here, this is my territory, my homeland – I was engaged with The Circle leading up to the conference with a number of others. And we also engaged, well The Circle did, also engaged Jade Roberts, who’s a woodland Cree artist and lives in Saskatoon; basically, a person on the ground who’s knowledgeable about the place, has the cultural context, and the location context, and helped advise and provide insights to The Circle team as they planned out the time at AMR. So I think there’s something there, as well, for folks to consider a lot more when they’re hosting gatherings in places, is to do it well. And for it to feel that it’s in context of the place. That, I think, is very important. I think that is an extension both of how Indigenous people tend to do this stuff; we can’t do anything really physically outside of the context of the land and the territory we’re doing it on. But I think for non-Indigenous folks, folks who are trying to learn about how to host and gather in different ways, I think there’s a lot of richness in that approach. I think we’ve come a long way in terms of people acknowledging the lands, you know, maybe at the beginning of a conference or something like that, and you know, fine, that’s something, that’s a start. But for me, the intentionality that goes into how the conference is designed, how the gathering is designed in relation to the place that it’s being hosted in, for me is an extension of that land acknowledgement and a realization of what that looks like in more practical ways. So again, Wanuskewin was intentional as a choice, it’s an Indigenous-owned and -operated space. That it’s a beautiful space on the land. And so as attendees, we got real glimpses and understanding of that history of that place from people who have been around Wanuskewin for a long time. We got tours, and we’re able to go out and actually utilize the space beyond the land at the place, at Wanuskewin, and understand and deepen our connection or collective connection and understanding of the history of that place. Who was speaking, you know – there were a lot of speakers from the area, from the region, who have been doing work. And so I think all of those things are really important things that I take away, and I really appreciate how The Circle does this work. It’s what goes into it in advance, the intentionality, the planning, the being super conscious of place, drawing on wisdom and expertise of Indigenous people from the place that you’re going and centring that throughout the gathering. What are they thinking about, the possibilities are where we kind of can take gathering or some other reflections? I think, Josh, you spoke to this a little bit, this spaciousness in the design and the agenda as well, right? Most typical conferences, man, you just cram as much as you possibly can into it. Maybe this I haven’t thought about this, when this would be me kind of trying to sit myself in Kris’s brain a little bit. But the idea of cramming so much into a limited time is very much like falling into the kind of scarcity mindset, right, that we only have this time, and if we don’t do every possible thing, then we wasted it. But what that doesn’t leave space for is oftentimes the things that people appreciate the most is the time for connection and dialogue. When you’re moving, you know, 30 seconds in between this PowerPoint and the next PowerPoint in a different room, you don’t have a lot of time to sit, to reflect, to digest, and to actually embody what you’re hearing and what you’re learning, and then to engage others in discussions around that. And so, there’s also something about both physical space, where we’re gathering and that, but the spaciousness and the design and the agenda and the time that we have together like that. That’s okay. There’s actually a lot of value in having space in the agenda for those things.
Holly
Love it. Josh, how did it feel being in the physical space of Wanuskewin?
Josh
It’s hard for me to add a ton to Justin’s great answer there. I’ll only say that I’ve been to other meetings at Wanuskewin, where it was much more typical conference model just happening at Wanuskewin. And it was lovely to be there. But nothing we did had any rapport with anything that was there. But then to have the experience of a meeting being organized, where the magic of that space was actually being activated and where the content was relevant to where we were. And having deliberately aspects of that space, the stories of the land around it. And even the story of how the centre itself was actually one of the things we were talking about and how it came to life. What a huge difference it made in terms of just being hosted by folks who were paying such attention to, and being informed by, the space where we were, and the place where we were, not just the internal space, but the place on the land where we were,
Holly
Thanks for sharing about how you’ve been to Wanuskewin in other settler-led conferences, and that it takes deep intentionality to show gratitude for where you are and the people who are stewarding it. It’s really got to be intentional about it. And something that The Circle does really, really well. One thing I noticed, that I realized as I was watching this: I can’t believe I’ve never seen this before, where Kris called in everybody on the team at Wanuskewin who had been helping to serve coffee, to get the food ready, to clear the tables, to move the chairs – called everybody in at the end of the conference. And I’ve never seen that happen before any conference ever. I could do such deep gratitude for all the relationships and folks that are really helping to make things happen for you.
Just as we’re kind of getting ready to wrap up. I am curious, do you have any final takeaways, thoughts, actions, any suggestions, questions that you’d like to ask the sector even, about where do we go next? How do we take the deep rich learnings of The Circle, the gifts that they offer?
Josh
I think in terms of how The Circle’s practices make us think about hosting and convening, which our foundation does, a lot of foundations do. We’ve really been doing a lot of thinking about shifting the way in which we host as well. We are a settlerled philanthropic organization, though with Indigenous folks present and board and staff, but we’re a settlerled organization and settler-created, so we’re not Indigenous as an organization. But there are definitely things that we can learn and take from how these gatherings are hosted and apply them to our own practices. We’ve had training conferences and other gatherings for many years, particularly before the pandemic, but also since. And we’re really thinking a lot about how we can change our offering, how we can create more spaciousness, more support, more care, in the way in which our gatherings are structured, where even not everyone will have this opportunity. But we just completed an office move, and we’re still cutting out a new office. And we’ve been lucky that it’s happening now. Because we’re thinking a lot about how to host people, thanks to The Circle, as we’re making decisions about our space and knowing that we’re going to have – we are creating spaces, physical spaces, for folks to gather, as many foundations have. And we’ve had conversations with staff thinking about colours and textures and materials and plantings and art and trying to be really intentional about how to create from an office building – you know, it’s an office – how to create a space that, for folks from community, for Indigenous folks who are working with the foundation, for racialized folks working with the foundation in different capacities, spaces that will be inviting, warm, where they will feel hosted. And so this is just talking about one small facet of what philanthropic organizations do, the convening, being a member of The Circle and the learnings from The Circle are affecting all kinds of things that we’re doing, but just to keep the focus on the hosting. For us, our membership in The Circle has really helped us to make different kinds of decisions about what we’re doing, and it’s going to continue to do so. And I think that there’s an opportunity for folks from across institutional philanthropy to think about better ways. And we’re by no means the first, but it certainly made a difference for us.
Holly
Thanks so much. Thanks, Josh. And I love that you’re taking it from the idea of being hosted as a one-off once-a-year kind of thing you do to actually, you host all year long, all the time, and what our responsibility is to make good decisions in a good way. Justin, any final takeaways?
Justin
Yeah, just kind of building a little bit on what Josh was sharing, I think good hosts take the job of hosting seriously. There’s more to it than just throwing an event. If you want it to be done well, and you want to have the sort of feeling and the impact that we’ve been talking about here so far. And so to think about how hosting is done with intention, with thoughtfulness and with care, I think it goes a long way. You know, folks won’t always see all the work that goes into hosting, and I’ve only had glimpses into it within The Circle. But no, there’s so much work that goes into doing it well. Sometimes people can think that, oh, well, there’s a lot of spaciousness in the agenda. It’s emergent. It’s all these things. And I think some people can feel that that is less work, when I think it’s actually more, to still have an impact, that the gatherings have to enable that space for the feeling of spaciousness, but at the same time, we still are within time, you know, we only have the venue until X time, people’s flights are happening at a certain time – those things will not just disappear. But the feeling that the conversation, the agenda was not jammed. And there was this feeling that we could have the conversations that we needed to have, but still magically, and the gathering at the right time. That doesn’t happen by luck, right? That’s work. That’s a lot of expertise and experience and intentionality that goes into doing that and accomplishing that. So to host well, you got to kind of take hosting serious. And then the other thing I just want to leave folks with is that if you’re listening to this, and you’re not already a member of The Circle, you should be. If you’ve never attended a Circle event in the past, you should plan on doing that soon.
Holly
Thanks, Justin, I am so glad you said that. I was actually gonna say the same thing, leaving folks with okay, so how do you learn how to practise? How do you learn from people who are practising this every single day. And definitely, like Justin said, become a member of The Circle. Come to the Fall Feast October 31 to November 2, check out the website, and I look forward to being in community with you all.
Wow, what a great conversation. My heartfelt thanks to our guests today. Joleen Mitten, Josh Patterson, and Justin Wiebe. This podcast was made in the spirit of reciprocity by a small group of people as a huge thank-you to The Circle for hosting us at All My Relations.
